Clutch bleeding prodeedure
You can do it your way, But this method always works for me.
After checking to be sure there are no leaks in the Clutch Hydraulic system.
Complete ALL of the following steps before test driving the car:
1) Install a helper in the drivers seat to push in and let out the clutch pedal on command.
2) Remove the cover from the Master Cylinder reservoir.
3) Top off fluid in the reservoir.
4) During the course of this procedure DO NOT allow the "helper" to "pump" the pedal. The "helper" is to depress and release the pedal on command only, DO NOT PUMP THE PEDAL. (See theory below)
5) You will be opening and closing the bleed screw on the slave cylinder as instructed below. CAUTION: During this procedure protect your eyes from squirting brake fluid.
6) (Helper) Press clutch pedal in fully and hold.
7) (You) Open the bleed screw to allow fluid to escape.
8) (You) Close bleed screw.
9) (Helper) Release pedal completely
10) (You) Top off fluid in reservoir.
11) Repeat steps #6 thru #10 no less than 5 times before going to #12 below. NO PUMPING!
12) You have now bled the Master Cylinder and the hydraulic line. YOU ARE NOT DONE YET!!!!! We must now bleed the Slave cylinder. (This is what the manual doesn’t tell you)
13) With no further action to be done with the clutch pedal, you can no remove the "helper" from the drivers seat and have him (her/it) help you do the following.
14) After topping off the Master Cylinder, completely remove the bleed screw from the slave cylinder.
15) Have the "helper" stand at the ready with the bleed screw and the appropriate wrench for installing the bleed screw.
16) PROTECT YOUR EYES!
17) With the bleed screw removed. With both hands grab the push rod coming out of the slave cylinder and push it into the slave cylinder as far as it will go AND HOLD it in.
18) Your "helper" will now install and tighten the bleed screw while you hold the plunger in.
19) When bleed screw is tight release the rod and as it comes out guide it into the proper position on the clutch arm.
20) Top off the Reservoir and the job is complete.
Continued
Theory:
Why do I insist that you REMOVE the bleed screw when pushing the plunger in on the slave cylinder? This is simple hydraulics. Fluid or air will always go the direction of least resistance. When you are pushing the rod into the slave cylinder you will find that it is impossible to push it in at a slowly and steadily pace. If you push it in too fast with the bleed screw still in and just unscrewed a few turns some of the brake fluid and/or air in the slave cylinder will go back up the hydraulic line that you just bled, thus necessating your starting over.
When bleeding your clutch....The biggest mistake or miss-conception a person can make is to pump the pedal.
The clutch Hyd. system, unlike the brake Hyd. system SHOULD NOT BE PUMPED. The only thing that happens when you "pump" the clutch is that you make any large air bubbles in the hydraulic system into a bunch of small air bubbles. BTW these small air bubbles are harder to bleed out than larger bubbles.
You cannot "pump up" a clutch. If you have to "pump up" the clutch to make a shift then you have a leak and you can bleed the system a dozen times to no avail.
On the clutch, think about it now, if you could "pump-up" the clutch wouldn't the
T.O. Bearing tend to invert the clutch diaphragm and travel toward the engine until it met up with something solid like the flywheel. On a braking system, when you "pump-up" the brakes you force the brake pads into the rotor until the line pressure builds up enough that the resistance you feel when pumping the pedal increases. Further, as you press harder and harder on the brake pedal the pads just increase their pressure on the rotors.
GM Thought this through when they designed the system. To avoid "pumping up" the clutch
hyd. system, GM put in a small bleed back hole in the master cylinder. (BTW not an original idea, all
Hyd. clutches have it) This bleed back hole relieves line pressure every time the pedal is at the top of the stroke. Didn't you notice when you "pumped up" the clutch pedal that it doesn’t firm-up like the brake pedal does?
The only thing you accomplish when "pumping up" the clutch pedal is to take any air bubbles that are in the system and atomize them into smaller air bubbles, thus making the problem worse. Remember when you were at the soda shop, as a kid, and your parents kept giving you hell about playing with you soda and straw? Same theory here! The more you move that soda through the straw the smaller the air bubbles become.
BTW the "hand pumps" work ok but I’ve never needed to buy one yet. With the hand pumps you still need to ensure that the slave cylinder gets completely bled.
v8archie
Price vs. Quality vs. Accuracy..... You tell me the correct balance.
We all want Quality at a Low Price. All customers want it and all legit manufacturers are searching for a way to provide it.
Over the years I've had many potential customers who call up and want the perfect such & such kit. Once they have been assured of a quality level they can't possibly understand why your kit is say $ 500 more than Joe Blow's kit. For the most part potential customers buy a body kit like they would buy a new pick-up truck. Let me explain: When you're shopping for a new truck you can go to all the Chevy dealers in town to get the best possible price, confident in knowing that no matter which dealer you buy from the truck will be of consistent quality because they are all built on the same production line. Well that's the way most potential "first time" kit buyers shop. They somehow assume that the kit they buy from Joe Blow for $ 4000 is the same as the kit Mr. Reputable is selling for $ 4900. Now people that are not "first time" kit buyers know better thru their prior experience, IE "they learned their lesson first time around".
Please let me give you a background of some things to consider.
Most legitimate manufactures put a lot of money into their R & D and don't copy items from others. You see a copycat (Vulture) can save as much as $ 40,000 stealing a design from splashing someone else's stuff. He can then put maybe another three or four-grand into
advertizing/refining it and sell it for less than the originator of the kit can sell it for. Thus the guy that originated it gets the short end of the stick. So there is not a lot of incentive in this industry for original design.
Then comes the dilemma of the designer/seller of a kit has to face at one point or another. This dilemma is best explained by an example.... Let's say a guy is designing a TR kit he gets to the point in the design where he has a TR looking car on a stock wheelbase Fiero, lets say he needs to sell the kit for $3995.00 to get a reasonable
R.O.I. (Return On Investment) he has to ask himself several questions:
Do I sell this kit like this?
Will I be able to sell enough of these kits to break even?
Do I spend more of my money to make this car the correct wheel base, dimensions etc.?
If I do continue development, will enough customers pay the additional $$$$ that I will have to charge to get the same
R.O.I. that I could have gotten if I had put my money in the bank instead?
THEN comes the next dilemma, say someone calls shopping for a 512 TR kit, the manufacturer says "Well we can design some panels that will go on our regular TR kit that make it look like the 512, but it will increase the cost of the kit from $ 8000 to $10,000." The customer responds, "Why should it cost me more? I am not getting any more fiberglass or accessories, only a different shape for that extra $ 2000, IT shouldn't cost anymore for materials, What gives?"
Now I happen to know of a guy who builds a TR kit that is hand and fist more accurate that any other I've seen, it is also priced more than 2 times as much (about $19,000 for kit) as my kit is and takes a lot longer to build. Now, are you willing to pay an extra $ 10,000 (plus the additional labor) for a kit that is 5% more accurate????? While you're trying to answer that question remember that the legit manufacturer has to ask himself, during development: "Because of the increased cost of development, Are there any potential customers out there that are willing to pay twice as much money for 5% more accuracy?"
Continued
The Vulture shops have it much easier. They can buy a kit of a car they think might become popular or they can wait ‘til it is starting to catch on. They can usually buy that kit right from the originator, and usually very cheap, because the originator has a lot of money tied up and he needs to create some cash flow. The Vultures, having made a very small (relative) investment. Can set back "do a little advertizing" and "analyze the market" and "determine the demand" for the new product. Usually the originator will help in this endeavor, he will have to cross his fingers and hope that he is not Vulture "Road Kill" because he needs a return on his investment. The originator has to hope that if the kit does become popular that the Vulture, whom he has been helping in the promotion of the new kit, will not steel the design from him. Look around, in the magazines, there are very few kits for sale by the person who originated the design. The people selling them will claim to have done the original work but will not be able to answer accurately, when you ask pointed questions about the design etc. If the project doesn't catch on the Vulture can just sell the turn-key car he has built and move on. But if it catches on they can take right off from their elevated perch and swoop right down to out market & copy a kit they stole.
I know of a very nice and talented guy in Puerto Rico who has developed all the parts it takes to make the TR kit I sell into the 512 TR some people desire. He charges me $ 1400 plus shipping to get these parts to the states. Are you willing to pay the difference? or Should I copy his parts? I could copy the parts at a very low cost to me, then sell my kit as a 512 TR or just a TR without increasing the price, but would that be fair to the guy that invested his money and time in originating the parts? I know that my friend in PR has sold his pieces to several people in the states (TX, CA, FL) and Canada. There are now no less than 10 Vultures producing these parts as their own now in the US & Canada. Is it any wonder why there are fewer and fewer talented people that are willing to put time and money into new development?
How about an original design that is not a replica. Currently there are a couple of new, very good, designs on the Fiero chassis. These two that I'm thinking of are beautiful modern designs, one is out of Russia and the other from England. I would estimate that the R & D costs on either one of them would close to 6 figures. Considering that, is it no wonder that these developers are sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for some Vulture to come down and for maybe $ 15000 investment, copy and steel these original designs. I'm praying for the good guys here! If talented people like this are allowed to make a fair profit on their work, maybe their next design will be even more exciting.
I have people write to me all the time wondering why don't I develop a kit to put a Rotary engine into a Miata, or a Ford small block into a Fiero. Or, like the other day, A Chevy V-8 into a TR-6. I would guess that these same people would go into sticker shock if they knew what the selling price would have to be to cover R & D on some of these ideas. You see there has to be a market large enough on what you're selling or the likelihood of breaking even is remote. Someone can do a quick and dirty "one off" kit to do any of the above swaps. But before I'll stick my neck out to market such a kit to the public, I would need to build several to find and correct the flaws or buy more liability insurance.
I have designed and manufacture a V-8 Fiero engine conversion kit. My kit has been copied by a few people, let me tell you about some of these copies:
Continued
A guy in Vancouver B.C. bought a Stick shift V-8 kit from me in 1993. He wanted me to ship the kit to him C.O.D. so I shipped it C.O.D. CASH ONLY. I shipped it in 2 boxes about 2 days apart. The first box had all of the Custom adapters and mounts and the second box had the Custom Flywheel and a couple of smaller less important parts. When the boxes arrived in Canada, he accepted shipment and paid the C.O.D. on the first box. Upon inspecting the shipment he felt that he had all of the parts he needed to copy my kit so he refused shipment on the second box. He now sells a stick shift V-8 conversion kit, that he readily admits is a copy of my kit. That kit doesn't include the flywheel & sells for $ 550
USD. He tells his customers that the flywheel they need is such&such part number available from their Chevy dealer. Well that such&such part number doesn't even exist, the customers will at one point or another have to buy the F/W from me at $ 450 per. And Mike laughs all the way to the bank.
Another guy in the Detroit area (he's now out of business, I think) did basically the same thing only with a automatic kit. The only kit you could have bought from him was for an automatic and his copy was priced higher than the kit he copied, go figure!
There have been a few other copiers (they know who they are) but the moral of the story is that
no one can know the kit as well as the originator and buying a known copy many times will cost you more in the long run.
As many know, I do a F-40 kit for the Fiero chassis and it is quite reasonably priced if I say so myself. My kit uses a solid fiberglass panel in the place of the glass Quarter windows on the original. I've had many potential customers who say "You should put a Window in there..." I respond by asking if they would be willing to pay $ 500.00 more if the kit had the window. Most have declined that offer. You see I figure it would take $ 5-7000 to develop a Qtr. Window that would work correctly in all situations and that I wouldn't be ashamed to sell. If I amortize that cost over 10-15 kits it would increase the kit cost some $ 500. So what is the balance between accuracy and cost, you tell me?
I hear this kind of statement (following) 10 or 15 times a day.
"I would ideally like to find as close to an original looking car as possible, without paying an arm and a leg."
There has to be a balance between accuracy and cost. towit: "as close to original looking car as possible" vs "paying an arm and a leg"
Someone please define that balance point.
Because I, like every other manufacturer, would like to find it. I would like for every potential customer to call me and say you have the prefect price and the perfect level of authenticity.
As a manufacturer, I know I haven't reached that point yet, because I haven't felt the swoop of 27 vultures coming down to copy my stuff yet, there has only been a few (you know who you are).
I would like to ask all who have read this far to have the courage and fortitude to seek out and purchase from the talented people who bring new ideas and products to this industry. The originator of a design can bring several things to the table that the Vulture can't, knowledge of his product and talent. That knowledge of the product and the support he can provide after the sale is why the cheaper kit is not always the better choice.
Lecture over. Archism #2
Archie
First of all, lets take a look at the differences between a steel and Aluminum pedal.
This is the Alum. Pedal:
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and this is the good steel pedal....
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On the Alum pedal notice how the "U" shaped bracket is bent to where it is closer on the top as opposed to the bottom. Also notice how the axis of the pin on the left is
no longer parallel to the axis to the fulcrum at the top.
On with the Archism:
Anyone Can Do It.
Another posting will discuss the symptoms of Clutch pedal problems.
There are other reasons you may be having clutch or shifting problems with your Fiero. This pedal replacement cures the MOST common cause (95%). Even if your problem is not directly related to the Pedal right now, you still need at some point to replace the Aluminum pedal with the steel pedal.
This is going to be quite detailed and this one set of instructions is, hopefully written to cover all years of Fieros. Those with automatics or those with no love for my favorite car may want to read this just so they can show their friends how smart they are. You are not allowed to delete this, by penalty of law.
Continued
Parts needed:
The clutch pedals are no longer available from GM but The Fiero Store 1-800-FIEROGT is reproducing them for you.
Also may need: (depending on year)
A bushing for the Banjo 3/8" ID X 1/2" OD with one lip. hardware store maybe $ 1.00
Note: using this bushing will prevent you from having to buy the new $ 45 Banjo the dealer is gonna try to sell you.
Two 3/8" ID flat washers hardware store maybe $ .10
Definitions:
Pedal: That thing down there by your feet.
Banjo:
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Bushing: At connection of pedal & Banjo. Looks like this:
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NOTE: I have found that a great source for the bushings is at you local speed shop. You can buy the Hurst Shifter Bushing Repair kit and have enough extra correct size bushings to last thru your next 5 Fieros.
Washer: At connection of pedal & Banjo. Looks like this _____ laying down
Pivot bolt: Long bolt on which pedals pivot looks like this H===========\\\\\
Pivot spring: A redundant spring that wraps around the pedal at the pivot point. This spring is not to be used on the replacement pedal.
To replace the pedal you will need the following tools
13mm socket
15mm socket
socket ratchet
short 3 to 4" socket extension
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needle nose pliers
15mm end wrench
Drop cord or other light
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Continued
Working position:
Prone, laying on back, push seat back all the way or removed, kick off shoes put feet on seat back....take tools & light with you.
Once in position:
1) Remove retaining clip holding banjo to the pedal and slide banjo off pedal.
2) Disconnect the cruse control switch from the pedal, if any.
3) With 15 mm tools remove nut from pivot bolt.
4) Slide pivot bolt out about half of it's length & far enough to disengage the clutch pedal but not the brake pedal.
5) This step will save you a lot of work. Way up inside there on the drivers side of the assembly, you will see a "U" shaped bracket. (Approx. 1" wide Strap steel looking thing) it is held onto the assembly by 2 - 13mm bolts. To make this an easy job unscrew those 2 bolts 6 or 8 turns DO NOT REMOVE THEM, they are real hard to get back in.
6) To remove pedal from the car work it/pull it down. You will encounter some resistance to this action caused by the pivot spring. Cut/pull/bend that spring just get it out of there. Trust me the spring is a throw away. This position is supported by a 1986 service bulletin issued when the new replacement pedals came out. 7) Once you have the pedal in hand you can get out of the car.
8) Transfer the greasy pivot pin and 2 plastic bushings from the old pedal to the new one. A little dab of grease can be used on
it if necessary.
9) You will notice that when comparing the new & old pedals that the pins on the pedals where the banjo attaches are different sizes (in most cases).
10) You will also notice that the banjo (which is still in the car) has a large 5/8" hole in it. In some cases it has a bushing in it that sizes it down to 3/8"
11) Your goal, is to assure through the use of bushings that the OD of the pin on the pedal and the ID of the banjo hole are the same size. YOU DO NOT WANT ANY PLAY HERE.
12) Re-install new pedal in the reverse order as removal with the exception of reinstalling the banjo onto the pedal, that is #13.
13) Re-install the banjo to the pedal making sure that the banjo loop (hole) is UP like it is in the banjo illustration above.
14) Now the only thing left to do is very important also. Assure that there is no left/right movement of the banjo on the pedal pin. Use flat washers to keep that movement to a minimum.
You be done
ONE FINAL NOTE: Some people have the same alum. pedal symptoms but have a steel pedal. I have seen one case where the steel pedal had a similar problem and when replaced with a new steel pedal the problem was cured.
LAST FINAL NOTE: Some factory built '87 & '88 Fieros were miss-assembled and the banjo was put onto the pedal up-side-down. Make sure your banjo is mounted as described in #13 above.
I hesitate to call this an Archism 'cus some of the cures may well have been discussed by others long ago. However, I would like to make this letter reflect the collective knowledge of all those who have come before be they here, moved along or in Fiero heaven.
This information will be updated from time to time and reposted, I have made provisions that it be passed along upon my demise. Submissions for inclusion in this list are encouraged. Please send them to Archie@v8archie.com
The symptoms:
A) The car moving when starting the engine with the trans. in gear and the clutch pushed in.
B) Hard to shift into reverse or 1st. with the engine running.
C) You say: "I just put a new clutch in and it still don't work right."
D) You can get in gear but it grinds.
E) You push the pedal all the way to the floor to engage.
What to look for:
1) Obvious leaks: You can't expect it to work if you have a puddle on the floor!
2) Is it bled properly?: You can put in a new pedal or replace all the parts, but if you bleed it the way the books tell you it'll never work. Proper bleeding procedure? See Archism #4 previously posted.
3) Do you have the steel pedal?: IMHO 95% of the above symptoms are caused by the Aluminum pedal. If you want your new clutch to last a long time, or your old one to last longer, check the clutch pedal. 1984 thru 1986 originally had aluminum pedals and they have an inherent design flaw. If you have the alum. pedal I HIGHLY recommend replacing it with the steel pedal PN 10066423.
4) You have the steel pedal, & still have the symptoms: Check this note: Some factory built '87 & '88 Fieros were miss-assembled and the banjo was put onto the pedal up-side-down. Make sure your banjo is mounted with the loop UP as described in #13 of Archism #6. Also: I have seen a few cases where the factory installed steel pedal had a similar problem (to the aluminum pedal) and when replaced with a new steel pedal the problem was cured (I feel this would be quite rare, but even GM is not perfect). In addition check for other cures in the hydraulic system below.
5) You've checked the above problems and are still looking for a cure: Your problem could still be a leak!!! Carefully peel back the carpeting and inspect as per my suggestion to the list in Feb. 1997 Where I suspected a master cylinder leak "You see, the fluid leaks around the piston into the boot then runs out of the boot down behind the carpeting in the drivers side foot well. The only way to discover this type of leak, aside from removing the carpet, is to look/feel for fluid under the carpet in the area where the master cylinder enters the passenger compartment." In all cases of a leak and some cases of air in the system an observation can be made. With a helper in the car have him push the pedal in all the way and hold it while you closely observe the clutch arm (in the engine compartment). As the pedal is depressed you will see the arm moving toward the engine, hold the pedal in and closely observe the arm. Does it retain it's position or does it slowly begin to return (move away from the engine) observe for at least a full minute. If it does start to return you've got a LEAK SOMEWHERE or a lot of air in the system.
6) If you are always "topping off" the reservoir on the clutch master cylinder and you've read this far then you missed something.....you've got a leak somewhere.
Continued
OBSERVATIONS I HAVE MADE ON THE WAY TO SOMEWHERE ELSE A) Pontiac owners manual states that the Fiero clutch is self adjusting. In truth it is not adjustable.
B) The bore size of the Master Cylinder and the Slave Cylinder is the same size, except the Getrag Slave has a bit larger bore. Don’t use an Isuzu Slave on a Getrag because the TOB will overtravel.
C) Through one full stroke of the clutch pedal the piston in the Master Cylinder moves 1.20" Maximum (a little less than that on a Getrag).
D) Because of C) the maximum travel of the piston in the bore of the slave cylinder is 1.20"
E) To properly operate the stock Fiero Clutch you need 1.15" of travel in the hydraulic system to properly engage and dis-engage the clutch.
F) Because of E) any inefficiency in the operation of the total system, (I.E. leaks or bad pedal or banjo on upside down) will cause one or more of the symptoms listed in the start of this posting.
G) The Fiero Master cylinder has a "bleed back hole" inside of it. This feature relieves line pressure when the pedal is all the way out thus preventing the T.O. Brg. From riding against the clutch while engaged.
H) Because of G) changing the length on the slave cylinder shaft (runs between the slave and the clutch arm) will not correct any of our symptoms.
I) The act of changing the length on the slave cylinder shaft has only one effect on the operation of the system. That is that it changes the relative position of the beginning and ending points of the piston travel in the slave cylinder bore it will not change it's efficiency.
J) Too long of a shaft will cause the piston to "bottom out" in the back of the slave bore making the pedal not return to it's full up position and thus not allowing the "bleed back hole" to do it's job .
K) Too short of a shaft will cause the piston to run into it's stop (a snap ring) at the end of the bore. If the piston reaches the end of the bore before the pedal is fully depressed the banjo will bend, a bad thing. So change the length of that shaft knowing that the only thing it will do is to move the operational stroke of the slave cylinder piston to a different area of the cylinder bore.
L) No amount of praying will make a ruined clutch work any better, although it might get you home.
M) Replacement of the stamped steel clutch arm on the transmission with the cast one is way over rated. While its being replaced will not hurt anything. I have only seen bad ones on about 3% of the cars I have worked on.
N) While some advocate replacement of the master and slave cylinders. I highly recommend replacement after trying all the other ideas in these Archism’s.
O) Oh!!! Did I mention that having the banjo mounted upside down screws up the geometry, thus negating the effects of B), C), D) & E).
P) Another problem I've seen, is loose or missing transmission to engine attaching bolts. Believe it or not a couple of loose bolts will cause our discussed symptoms.
Q) Also check the slave cylinder mounting to ensure that the slave cylinder is not moving or flexing on it's mounts.
Well I'm sure that doesn't cover everything, but I'm getting tired of pecking for now.
If you have any questions, requests or submissions address them to Archie@v8archie.com
Archie
OK...OK...OK
Some of you guys are scaring me now!!!!
I'd sure hate to see somebody get hurt or killed & would defiantly not like to see that you left behind a damaged Fiero. I hate buying used Fieros that are all bloody!
So, If you will allow me......
Refer to your repair manual for complete instructions for disconnecting the accessories. We recommend that you use one of the following manuals:
1. Chiltons Auto Repair Manual
2. Pontiac Fiero Owners Workshop Manual by Haynes
PARTIAL REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS (read all of these instruction before starting the job)
1. Remove rear deck lid. Disconnect & remove the battery.
2. Disconnect the connectors from all components on the engine and transmission. Label all connectors and sensors for ease of reassembly. (per manual) OMIT this step if you opt for #8 below.
3. Disconnect the throttle and shift cables. (per manual)
4. Use caution disconnecting the air conditioning and fuel systems (as your manual will tell you).
5. The manuals suggest that you raise the car off the engine cradle with a garage hoist to remove the engine. If you do not have the equipment to do this, you may want to raise the car and support it on proper jack stands. Then lower the engine assembly out of the car with an overhead hoist. If you raise the car to where the top of the rear wheel well is 45 inches or more from the shop floor and the front tires are about 6" off the floor, you will have enough room to lower the assembly down onto a wooden creeper or dolly. The car will need to be securely supported forward of the engine cradle attachment points or behind the rear of the cradle mounting points. Note: if you support the car with jack stands forward of the engine cradle attachment points, you will need to be cautious as to the balance of the car on the jack stands as it can "tilt" if you lean too heavily on the rear fenders while removing the engine. The safest way is to support the rear of the car with jack stands under the frame just behind the rear cradle attachment points, this gives you a "solid" work environment.
6. The only "safe" way to remove the engine assemble from the car is with a properly supported overhead hoist or a "cherry picker". You can rent a chain fall or a cherry picker for a lot less than your potential hospital bills.
7. I highly recommend on '84 thru '87 Fieros that you take the rear suspension out with the engine assembly, it makes reassembly must easier. To do this you will need to remove the calipers from the spindles and hang them, and you will need to remove the 3 bolts at the tops of the strut assemblies (shock towers). You can go either way on the '88 Fiero. Either way don't remove the spindle to strut attachment bolts unless you plan to do a wheel alignment after you have reassembled your car.
8. I also recommend on '85 thru '88 Fieros that you take the wiring harness out with the engine (this is way too difficult on '84's). This saves you from having to re-route a bunch of wires when reassembling the car. Some of these connections: I.E. starter, alternator, A/C etc. are real hard to connect and
dis-connect in the car. You can remove the center console and disconnect the harness from the computer by just un-plugging a few easy to get to wires.
9. Lower the engine/cradle assembly out of the car onto a dolly and roll it out thru the right side wheel well opening.
10. You can then do the work to the assembly (clutch replacement, engine replacement or whatever) and then reassemble in the reverse order.
In my shop I have a garage hoist as described in the manuals and could remove the engine as described in the manuals but I have found that the above method is easier. By myself I can complete this process in 2.5 hours, with help it takes me 3.0 hours.
Think safety and someday you'll be as old as me!!!!
On the question of engine choices see below:
The toughest question I'm asked, is when I'm asked to pick out "the best" engine for someone I don't know. Here is the best I can do to answer that question.
Many times I'm asked what is the best engine for a Fiero.
This is very difficult to answer. There are as many choices on engines as there are individuals doing them. Typically most people opt to use new crate engines or freshly rebuilt engines. Of these new & re-built engines, car owners have elected to leave them in more or less stock form while others have had the engines modified to a wide range of power outputs.
You ask "What vehicle would most likely have this engine?" Let me answer that like this....
Small Block Chevy engines have been in use for more than 40 years. Our kit is designed so that ANY of them could be put into a Fiero.
Your SBC engine can come out of say a '69 (any model) Chevy or a '93 Firebird/Camaro and it will fit and work just fine. Now some stock engines from a "bone-yard" are better than others in that they have different power outputs. For the most part "bone-yard" engines may need a re-build before they are used in any swap. The engine re-builder can then re-build the SBC engine to make a wide range of different power outputs, depending on the owners requirements & preferences.
There are several different engine combinations on my Customer Car Page & those cars there are only a small sampling of the available choices. I dare say that there are as many choices in SBC conversions as there are Fiero owners who are inclined to do V-8 conversions. I've done more than 120 of these conversions for myself and my customers and NO 2 of them have been EXACTLY the same.
As a sample, on my Customer Car Page http://www.v8archie.com/customer.htm you'll find the following:
Pete Macks Car...... http://www.v8archie.com/pmack.htm is a very unique car built by the owner. He chose a carburated SBC engine and wanted an in-expensive "Pocket Rocket".
David Murphy's car...... http://www.v8archie.com/murphy.htm David wanted an investments car with a wild body conversion and the power to match. He used a
TPI-SBC engine that he got at a "bone yard" and had completely re-built to his specifications.
Mel Levin's car..... http://www.v8archie.com/nickc.htm was built by Nick
Ciotto. Nick chose to use a ZZ3 crate engine with carburation to enhance the look & performance of his IMSA body kit.
Curt Steenson's car .... http://www.v8archie.com/steenson.htm Car should speak for it's self. Curt operates a body shop and wanted a car that, when painted Black, would show off his skills. He also wanted enough power that he wouldn't be embarrassed by Ford Escorts at traffic lights. He built his own 350 for this swap.
Jim Wolfe's car .... http://www.v8archie.com/wolfe.htm Was built by the owner who paid more attention to detail than anyone I know. Initially he put a 300HP 350 in the car and over the last few years has slowly upgraded the power adding the normal Hot Rodding items like Alum. Heads, Cam, and carburation to the car. Word is that he is now adding TPI injection. Jim built this car several years ago and, he & his wife have driven it (no trailer) to shows & Fiero events all over the Midwest and east coast.
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Mike Pupillo's car .... is featured at his web site http://www.gcstation.net/~mpupillo/ , Mike is one of my first customers to use TPI and originally built the car 6 or 7 years ago.
Pat Ciarcia's car .... http://www.v8archie.com/pat.htm could be considered the ultimate Drag Race Fiero, this car was built for Drag Racing only and has run 10.30's consistently. This purpose built car is very fast and is a good display of Pat's business of building Drag Cars.
Dave Balfour's car.... http://www.v8archie.com/balfour.htm Dr. Dave as we like to call him, uses his nice 350 Chevy powered Fiero to tool around his area hitting the night spots and not being embarrassed by what he drives.
Jamie Jone's car.... Could be considered the ultimate street Fiero by some. In 1998 he considered trading in his one owner '88 coupe on a new Z-28. He then realized that for less money than that Z-28 he could have a unique "non cookie cutter" car. He put a custom interior in the car and brought it to us and we installed the IMSA body kit and a ZZ4 Chevy crate engine with
TPI. Check out the Wheels, I love them and I'm getting some for my Chop Top Car.
Carl Baer's car ..... http://www.v8archie.com/baer.htm Car had his car's V-8conversion done by a car builder in OH. He has a 350 Carburated V-8 in it with lots of chrome and polished engine compartment panels. The custom paint job on this Fiero must be seen to be appreciated. You'll see him this next year at many car shows in the Ohio area.
Paul Vargyas' car..... http://www.v8archie.com/paul.htm Paul is a fellow member of NIFE and is the ultimate Fiero guy. We installed a 350 (LM1) crate engine with TPI into his beautiful '88 Formula. You'll see this one picking up trophies at Fiero events all thru the '99 season.
Gary Smith's car..... http://www.v8archie.com/gsmith.htm Gary is also a fellow member of NIFE and after he saw Paul
Vargyas' car he just had to have one. This car is real similar to Paul's car except that Gary wants to keep the car looking like a true "Sleeper" to the point that he has even removed the wing from his Formula. He had us install a Camaro Muffler (where his trunk used to be) and this is the ultimate "Sleeper" in that it makes less noise than it did with the stock engine in it.
Jim Hall's car is well documented on his web page http://www.frontiernet.net/~jhall1/ Jim is a list member and his project is in process as we speak.
Harry Brattin's car..... http://www.v8archie.com/harry.htm Harry saw an internet ad for my 308 replica that I was selling. As it turns out I had sold the car before he made a decision on it's purchase. So Harry was going to send his one owner '84 Fiero out to me from San Diego. After considering what that transportation was going to cost him he decided to purchase this '87 coupe from me and have me do a swap using the LM1 crate engine with TPI (this has been a popular choice lately). Harry and his wife flew out the Monday before Christmas and drove the car back to San Diego in Sub-Zero temps & via Route 66. Yeah, that's right an initial "test drive" of like 2900 miles.
William Bolle's car .... http://www.v8archie.com/bolle.htm In Florida, Bill made a conscious decision to install a 350 CI 355 HP ZZ4 crate engine into his Fiero. Featuring Super Trapps and a double
pumper. Bill put this car together in about 2 weeks. It was a project he had figured on spending the winter doing and he had it finished way early, with lots of winter left he can now spend more time with his family.
As you can see there are as many answers to your question as there are Fiero owners.
Hope this helps
Archie
Yes, we do V-8 conversions for Customers at our shop in Machesney Park, IL (just North of Rockford, IL. 70 miles WNW of Chicago).
When we do the conversions in our shop we use all of the items in our Master-Build Conversion Kits. The price of the correct Master-Build Conversion Kit is included in the prices below.
On stick shift Fieros, using a “normal” SBC, we charge $6700, plus the cost of the complete engine you choose to use. (LT1-4 Swaps are $700 more). This includes all of the items in our Master-Build Conversion Kit plus labor & testing as required to complete the conversion. We can perform other work on your car while we are doing the V-8 conversion at additional cost. On Automatic shift Fieros we charge $7900, plus the cost of the complete engine you choose to use. (LT1-4 swaps are $700 more). This includes A complete "Beef-up" of the Automatic transmission & includes all of the items in our Master-Build Conversion Kit plus labor & testing as required to complete the conversion. We can perform other work on your car while we are doing the V-8 conversion at additional cost. You are free to supply your own V-8 Chevy engine for us to install, or we can purchase one for you. If you supply a used engine you are taking responsibility for the condition of the engine you supply. If it runs, good, if it doesn't run or is in poor
Condition that is your responsibility. We only install the engine one time if it is a bad engine the labor and parts for repairs is additional. We DO NOT purchase used engines for customers.
We are now also doing V-8 engine conversion using the New Generation of GM engines like the LS1, LS2 & LS6. We are doing these swaps on Stick shift Fieros only. These LSx swaps runs around $9800.00 plus the cost of the engine you choose to use & the wire harness & ECM needed for that engine.
Some of the more popular engine choices and costs are as follows.
New "LM1" Chevy crate engine. These engines are quite popular lately. They have stock cast iron heads and make about 270 BHP. They can be outfitted with Carburetion ($3100) or TPI fuel injection ($3800). Like http://www.v8archie.com/dburns.htm New 330 HP Chevy crate engine. This is the latest Chevy Crate engine, makes 330 BHP and uses many special parts. It uses High Flow "Vortec" heads and can only be outfitted with Carburetion. This engine complete with all the items needed for conversion runs about $3450.
New "355 H.O." Chevy crate engine. These engines are a full 355 BHP and feature Aluminum "angle plug" heads, roller cam, big valves & are externally balanced. They can be outfitted with Carburetion ($4100) or TPI fuel injection ($5000). Like http://www.v8archie.com/jamie.htm
LT1 SPFI engines. These engines are becoming rare and there are a very limited supply of them left. They are 1996 Vette production engines and were last manufactured in 1997. In the Vette these engines were rated at 300 SAE net HP (approx 370+ BHP)Very few dealers and other suppliers have these engines available. By the time one of these engines is complete enough to put into a Fiero figure on investing around $5900. Unless you have one of these engines laying around, you can many times use a LS1 for only a few $ more.
We are now also doing V-8 engine conversion using the New Generation of GM engines like the LS1, LS2 & LS6. We are doing these swaps on Stick shift Fieros only. These LSx engines are popping up everywhere. You can buy them as new Crate engines or as used engines. I’ve seen some brand new LS1 surplus engines selling for as low as $3500.00 plus the wire harness we need & the ECM & you can have the latest in GM engineering in your stick shift Fiero.
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There are any number of engines available either new or re-built from any number of different suppliers. You'll note that the above engines are all new Chevy crate engines. I'm not trying to discourage you from using a re-built engine but there are so many good re-built engines available from many sources that it would be impossible for me to detail them here. If you are pricing Re-built or other SBC engines, please use this statement as a guide. What does "Complete engine" mean? In our Master-Build V-8 kits we supply the Flywheel and the Harmonic Balancer Pulley. We consider a "Complete Engine" to be an engine that, with the addition of our F/W & H.B.P., would be able to run on it's own. If it's a Carbureted engine it would need to be a "Long Block" engine plus intake manifold, carb., air cleaner, distributor,
spark plugs, plug wires, Valve covers, oil pan and all the fasteners it would take to attach all the above items. If it's t be a Fuel Injected engine it would need to be a "Long Block" engine plus complete injection system, proper fuel pump, air cleaner, distributor, spark plugs, plug wires, Valve covers, correct ECM, Aftermarket Chip, and aftermarket wire harness, oil pan and all the fasteners it would take to attach all the above items.
Note all GM engine prices were accurate as of June 2005, some price variation may result if GM raises or lowers the prices of the engines.
Another thing to note is that we now have a kit to allow you to use a New GM 6 speed transmission in your V-8 Fiero project. You can read up on that new option by looking for it in the Products section of this web site.
I hope this helps.
You can email me at Archie@v8archie.com & give me as many details as you can about what you want built & I’ll put together a quote for you.
Archie
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